Vendor Pricing

Originally Posted by Toasty

what's the problem with that? the goodridge lines sell all day long for 100 or more for the set, so they're competitive no doubt. every place you buy things has markup. some items have more markup than others, i'd even venture to say that some of the stuff zzp has, they may not break even on. this is no different from any other commercial vendor pretty much anywhere.

No, don't get me wrong, I agree that businesses have to raise their price over what they paid to make a profit. I understand that. But the problem I have is the attitude about the "price gouging". ZZP often comes off on other boards like they are selling things at rock bottom prices and not making a dime. They will "claim poverty" in hopes of making the buyers feel bad for them and accept their inflated prices. Sure, they may sell some of their custom parts at little to no markup (but I highly doubt it), but they make loads of money on the common parts that people can find cheaper elsewhere (SS lines, struts, gaskets, tranny fluid, etc). But people think that ZZP is selling these things to help them out and they know grand prixs, so they won't rip me off. Yes, they will rip you off, and they do it every day. Maybe "rip off" isn't the correct term. But they seriously inflate prices, and people that trust ZZP to be fair sadly pay those prices.

Just my $.02 on it. Sorry to take this thread off track...

Originally Posted by Zef_66

No, don't get me wrong, I agree that businesses have to raise their price over what they paid to make a profit. I understand that. But the problem I have is the attitude about the "price gouging". ZZP often comes off on other boards like they are selling things at rock bottom prices and not making a dime. They will "claim poverty" in hopes of making the buyers feel bad for them and accept their inflated prices. Sure, they may sell some of their custom parts at little to no markup (but I highly doubt it), but they make loads of money on the common parts that people can find cheaper elsewhere (SS lines, struts, gaskets, tranny fluid, etc). But people think that ZZP is selling these things to help them out and they know grand prixs, so they won't rip me off. Yes, they will rip you off, and they do it every day. Maybe "rip off" isn't the correct term. But they seriously inflate prices, and people that trust ZZP to be fair sadly pay those prices.

Just my $.02 on it. Sorry to take this thread off track...

The market helps determine what any vendor, including ZZP can sell their products for. If people werent buying the parts, the vendor is going to cut prices, or cut products, or go out of business. that's just the nature of the beast, and you're kidding yourself if you think that any major vendor isnt this way. but like you said, is off topic, so let's let it rest, and back to the brake lines....

has anyone gotten either set yet?

Originally Posted by Toasty

The market helps determine what any vendor, including ZZP can sell their products for. If people werent buying the parts, the vendor is going to cut prices, or cut products, or go out of business. that's just the nature of the beast, and you're kidding yourself if you think that any major vendor isnt this way. but like you said, is off topic, so let's let it rest, and back to the brake lines....

has anyone gotten either set yet?

Okay, we can let it go.

But all this has me thinking. My brother has an older Suzuki motorcycle and he went to a local place to get SS brake lines made up. I wonder what they charged. I should look into it and see about getting some sets made up. I am thinking they were pretty cheap. Anyway, something to look into.

Originally Posted by Zef_66

Okay, we can let it go.

But all this has me thinking. My brother has an older Suzuki motorcycle and he went to a local place to get SS brake lines made up. I wonder what they charged. I should look into it and see about getting some sets made up. I am thinking they were pretty cheap. Anyway, something to look into.

well, get workin on that, duuude!

Originally Posted by Zef_66

No, don't get me wrong, I agree that businesses have to raise their price over what they paid to make a profit. I understand that. But the problem I have is the attitude about the "price gouging". ZZP often comes off on other boards like they are selling things at rock bottom prices and not making a dime. They will "claim poverty" in hopes of making the buyers feel bad for them and accept their inflated prices. Sure, they may sell some of their custom parts at little to no markup (but I highly doubt it), but they make loads of money on the common parts that people can find cheaper elsewhere (SS lines, struts, gaskets, tranny fluid, etc). But people think that ZZP is selling these things to help them out and they know grand prixs, so they won't rip me off. Yes, they will rip you off, and they do it every day. Maybe "rip off" isn't the correct term. But they seriously inflate prices, and people that trust ZZP to be fair sadly pay those prices.

Just my $.02 on it. Sorry to take this thread off track...

Anything can usually be purchased cheaper if you shop and shop. The point of ZZP is that it's taylored to our cars and it's a one stop shop. You know that what you buy will work and it's easy to find things. We charge less than the dealer, less than other 3800 vendors and give out advice on the use of products. I fail to see how this is price gouging. Look at the stainless brake lines. They are a custom part. You can't buy "longer than stock" stainless lines unless you shop around. We're cheaper than most places like PFYC on the lines and I posted a 30% off coupon here for you guys.

Take the trans fluid you posted as an example. 1st off, it's not sold anywhere but GM dealerships. You won't find it at Advance or Napa. Then when you do call a dealer, not many stock it. you have to call or drive around. When you do go to pick it up will they tell you how much your trans takes? How about if you are installing a shift kit? What if you have a 245 or 258mm converter? Will they tell you the difference between Dex 6 and 3? do they know?
All of these things come into play with the products we sell. That's what distinguishes us from Summit or Jeggs. Our parts are specific and so is the information and tech support. Hell, we have an entire article written just on that transmission fluid. How many places that sell it have written an article? I wrote it personally after much R&D and testing. I can even give you HP loss numbers based on the transmission fluids temperature. So how much is that worth? Is your time worthless? Would you go to work for free at your job? ZZP is my job. Don't you think we deserve to make an extra 50 cents on a gallon of trans fluid to compensate for the R&D and tech articles or are you a person that shops our site for the information and then drives around to save $2 on products so we don't 'rip you off'? If that's the case I would ask that you stop ripping us off by gleaning our information for free. At least contribute by sending us tech articles to post, buying our stuff or sending a donation...

Edit for another thought...About 1/2 of the parts on ZZP are designed, developed by ZZP and custom for your car. How can you even put a baseline price on something that doesn't exist? What do you think funds the development of these products? Looking at your mod list, you're running 1.84 rockers. Guess what? ZZP developed those. Someone had to pay for the wages of a person taking the time to test rocker ratios and find out the highest you can safely run without valve float on stock springs. So you are reaping the benefit of the so called "price gouging" by ZZP. I'm sorry for going on and on but as the owner I've poured blood, sweat and tears into this company and re-invested our profits into developing parts to help the comunity. i would hope that ZZP could have enough appreciation that we don't have to be the brunt of baseless attacks for selling merchandise at a profit.

Zooomer, I will agree with you that your time is worth something. I will agree that you provide parts specifically for our vehicles. It is a niche market at best and that makes for a tough business, particularly if the platform is not long lasting. I completely see your point of view to be clear. You are a business and and not a non-profit business. You need and deserve to make a profit for the work you do, for the jobs you have created by having employees, etc.

But if you will allow me to respectfully play devils advocate for a moment. And first let me say that if I had not already purchased longer lines during your woot sale, Id be all over this deal.

I think the issue is that the perception is that all prices are at their bottom price point. I dont wish to cause an issue with Zef, I value him being here and a part of this community, but I havent gotten the same perception as he has. However, that said, its the perception that if they can offer such a deep discount as you have, then why not sell it at that lower price all the time? This is exclusive to your business either, you hear this in all circles. Clothes, cars, food, etc. And I say all this with some trepidation as I prefer not to ruin your desire to come back here and offer other discounts.

That said, I think what is not often realized (and I dont know this to be the case with the brake lines you are offering) is that sometimes a discount is offered that brings the price down below what even the business paid for it in the hopes that it would spur on enough traffic or business that will result in other purchases of items in which they do make a profit on.

Take convenience stores for example. They sell gas and make little if anything on it. But where they do make their money is when you go inside and buy a pop, chips and other snacks or items. The gasoline is a draw just to get you in the store. Zooomer hasnt said this specifically nor am I stating this, but lets at least consider the fact that perhaps Zooomer may be selling these cheaper than what he bought them for.

He is also correct that they provide information that comes from R&D and experience often free of charge. I called them when I got my shaft mount rockers and was missing the little spacers and had no bolts with it. I was on the phone a good time with the person that answered as they asked questions about other valve train parts I had so that they could get me the right sized spacers. I had no idea there were different sizes, I just thought they were generic spacers. But because of their experience where I had none, I got the right parts. Can you imagine installing the rockers having just picked a spacer not knowing if it was the right one or not? You got all the stuff off the engine you would have to pull to get to that point only to be denied.

So I would ask that we consider this as well with respect to what Zooomer is offering. The market is very much dictated by the consumer. And if one does not like what is being offered, your voice is heard through your purchasing decisions. The vendor then has to make the decision on whether to listen or not, and we know the consequences of each choice.

I will add this Zooomer, just for the record. Dex 6 is available in the parts stores. I was just in AutoZone this past weekend and they had Dex 6 in there. I havent checked Advance Auto or Oreilly's yet. But Autozone also had the G-05 coolant which has been a bit difficult to find as well.

So in the SS Brake Line thread, we started to get off in on tangent about vendor pricing. I probably started it, so instead of throwing it further off topic, I thought I would start a new thread. Here is the progression:

Originally Posted by Zef_66

Good deal no doubt. But what I find funny that they are able to offer this discount, and still make money. Any good company won't sell products and lose money. So they were making $32 profit and maybe more on every set of SS brake lines they sold? Quite possible.

Originally Posted by Toasty

what's the problem with that? the goodridge lines sell all day long for 100 or more for the set, so they're competitive no doubt. every place you buy things has markup. some items have more markup than others, i'd even venture to say that some of the stuff zzp has, they may not break even on. this is no different from any other commercial vendor pretty much anywhere.

Originally Posted by Zef_66

No, don't get me wrong, I agree that businesses have to raise their price over what they paid to make a profit. I understand that. But the problem I have is the attitude about the "price gouging". ZZP often comes off on other boards like they are selling things at rock bottom prices and not making a dime. They will "claim poverty" in hopes of making the buyers feel bad for them and accept their inflated prices. Sure, they may sell some of their custom parts at little to no markup (but I highly doubt it), but they make loads of money on the common parts that people can find cheaper elsewhere (SS lines, struts, gaskets, tranny fluid, etc). But people think that ZZP is selling these things to help them out and they know grand prixs, so they won't rip me off. Yes, they will rip you off, and they do it every day. Maybe "rip off" isn't the correct term. But they seriously inflate prices, and people that trust ZZP to be fair sadly pay those prices.

Just my $.02 on it. Sorry to take this thread off track...

Originally Posted by Toasty

The market helps determine what any vendor, including ZZP can sell their products for. If people werent buying the parts, the vendor is going to cut prices, or cut products, or go out of business. that's just the nature of the beast, and you're kidding yourself if you think that any major vendor isnt this way. but like you said, is off topic, so let's let it rest, and back to the brake lines....

Originally Posted by Zef_66

Okay, we can let it go.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Anything can usually be purchased cheaper if you shop and shop. The point of ZZP is that it's taylored to our cars and it's a one stop shop. You know that what you buy will work and it's easy to find things. We charge less than the dealer, less than other 3800 vendors and give out advice on the use of products. I fail to see how this is price gouging. Look at the stainless brake lines. They are a custom part. You can't buy "longer than stock" stainless lines unless you shop around. We're cheaper than most places like PFYC on the lines and I posted a 30% off coupon here for you guys.

Take the trans fluid you posted as an example. 1st off, it's not sold anywhere but GM dealerships. You won't find it at Advance or Napa. Then when you do call a dealer, not many stock it. you have to call or drive around. When you do go to pick it up will they tell you how much your trans takes? How about if you are installing a shift kit? What if you have a 245 or 258mm converter? Will they tell you the difference between Dex 6 and 3? do they know?
All of these things come into play with the products we sell. That's what distinguishes us from Summit or Jeggs. Our parts are specific and so is the information and tech support. Hell, we have an entire article written just on that transmission fluid. How many places that sell it have written an article? I wrote it personally after much R&D and testing. I can even give you HP loss numbers based on the transmission fluids temperature. So how much is that worth? Is your time worthless? Would you go to work for free at your job? ZZP is my job. Don't you think we deserve to make an extra 50 cents on a gallon of trans fluid to compensate for the R&D and tech articles or are you a person that shops our site for the information and then drives around to save $2 on products so we don't 'rip you off'? If that's the case I would ask that you stop ripping us off by gleaning our information for free. At least contribute by sending us tech articles to post, buying our stuff or sending a donation...

Edit for another thought...About 1/2 of the parts on ZZP are designed, developed by ZZP and custom for your car. How can you even put a baseline price on something that doesn't exist? What do you think funds the development of these products? Looking at your mod list, you're running 1.84 rockers. Guess what? ZZP developed those. Someone had to pay for the wages of a person taking the time to test rocker ratios and find out the highest you can safely run without valve float on stock springs. So you are reaping the benefit of the so called "price gouging" by ZZP. I'm sorry for going on and on but as the owner I've poured blood, sweat and tears into this company and re-invested our profits into developing parts to help the comunity. i would hope that ZZP could have enough appreciation that we don't have to be the brunt of baseless attacks for selling merchandise at a profit.

So, the last post, Zoomer's, is the one I want to respond to. He touched on everything except the SS brake lines which were the item I originally mentioned. As I noted, he offered a $32 discount. Thus why I said they seemed overpriced since they are probably still making a profit even after the $32 price increase.

But my point about price gouging is this. Where I work, we sell our product. We are in an honest business and not our to screw anyone over. If someone needs a part and tells me "I don't care what it costs. As long as it is cheaper than your competitor at $XX.XX." Do I just try to beat that price? Or do I figure my costs, add my 20% profit margin, and sell it honestly, while still making a profit. Since I believe I am not out to screw over my customers, I sell it for my costs plus 20%.

So as for the brake lines. If I am in business, and I can get them made at $60 a set, I would sell them at $72 and make an honest profit. If someone else is selling them for $99, I don't automatically raise my price to $89 to make more profit. To me, that is selfish by wanting as much profit I can without regards to the customer. This is my view on the brake lines.

The same applies to any other general product that may be purchased and resold (gaskets, springs, struts, etc.) I think it is fair to charge 20% profit on these parts. And this would make you a one stop shop while still turning a profit. And if you do research and have extra time, that is fine to figure it in on the costs. You know how much time you spent on it. And you know your target sales for that product. Divide it out, and raise the price accordingly. Again, fine by me.

But the problem I have is when I the prices I see are significantly more than I can buy locally. If the parts I buy at a local parts store are more than 20% cheaper than another's prices, then yes, I think this is unfair. Not saying a little guy can get the same gasket at the same price as a big parts store. I realize this. But when Autozone can sell a gasket for $10, and turn a profit, a smaller retailer should be able to buy that same gasket for $10 or less, and be expected not to sell it for $18. Again, some companies have no problems ripping off their customers. But I feel that I honestly cannot do this.

And Zoom mentioned tranny fluid. Yes, GM Dexron VI is only available at dealers. But I can get Valvoline full synthetic Dex VI for $3.80 a quart. Even from my local dealer, I can get GM Dex VI for $4.50 a quart. With no shipping either place. Just stop on the way home from work. And yes, those places will all look up and tell me how much I need. And yes, they know the difference between Dex VI and Dex III (and that Dex III should no longer be used since Dex VI is better). And if I can get fluid from GM for $4.50 a quart, a retailer should be able to buy in bulk, or with a tax ID number, and get it cheaper.

As for R&D or parts. That is great that you have the ability to build and test parts. But again, those price increases should only be seen on the parts that the R&D was done on. You should know the time that was put into them. You should know the number of units you expect to sell. You should know the overhead costs and labor costs. So its fairly easy to figure out the price of a product, with the R&D that went into that product included in it. If the price is too much and not comparable with other similar products on the market, then sufficient research wasn't done on that product before hand.

So in the end, I will buy my parts from the place that sells them at a fair price, and thus a fair profit. I work hard for my money and don't like being ripped off. These are not baseless attacks. Just my opinions on the matter. I have bought from ZZP and probably will in the future is the price is right. But yes, I shop around and spend my hard earned money on the parts that are priced the most reasonable.

define fair profit. In Electronics I have a margin of 1% up to 100% depending on brand and line (and some have a minimum price I can advertise), jewelry typically has a 300-400% markup no one balks at that. I know some car parts have a huge mark up while others have next to nothing. Retail prices are set by the market conditions, you charge what people will pay, but you don't want to go so cheap that people perceive lower quality (basic marketing classes teach that)

I certainly see your point Zef, however as I am sure you know, since your in the business, is that we the consumer are in control of the price of an item. I have worked for Western Auto, Parts America and Advance Auto (all the same building, we just changed names due to the chain being sold). We never had a 20% policy, it was 5% below the competitors price even if it meant we have to take a loss on it, just to get that person back. I now work with Wal-Mart and get to see some of the inner working of how they get their lower prices. I have to say that no one should tell any owner how to run their business. It is all on Zooomer and only him to make his business a success, and being that its been around for quite some time, I would have to say he has done good.

That said, I shop for deals. If I can get something from a local parts store for the same price, then I get it there. If I need something that I can only get online, and one of the community vendors has it within 5 bucks or so, then I will support the community vendor.

How a business splits up the R&D cost is their business. I personally like the idea of splitting up the cost over other items, as it keeps the price down on say valve covers or heads. Look at the Pharmaceutical industry....We the American people pay for all the R&D so they can sell the drugs cheaper in Canada, so what have we done....We have more and more people buying them there.

The bottom line is this. If you don't like the price, look for a cheaper one. Its all about the supply and demand.

FYI....please try to keep in mind that we all read things differently, so when there are comments like:

We are in an honest business and not our to screw anyone over.

It could be taken that you are saying that Zooomer is not an honest business man and is out to screw everyone over. I don't think this is what you meant, however based on the topic and the content, it could be viewed that way.

webracin

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Take the trans fluid you posted as an example. 1st off, it's not sold anywhere but GM dealerships. You won't find it at Advance or Napa.

Not true...Dextron 3 is no longer produced, so Dextron 6 is starting to show up on shelves everywhere once surplus supplies are depleted.

Then when you do call a dealer, not many stock it. you have to call or drive around.

Also not true. Every GM dealership will stock a good supply for their transmission rebuilding. The only reason for them not to have it would be a shortage by the supplier through GM, which does happen on occasion. Simply for the fact that GM does not make any of their chemicals. They are contracted out by a certain company for a given time. If they do not renegotiate said contract, and it expires then it can lead to a shortage of that certain product or line of products. This happens quite often surprisingly, but fortunate for everyone things get worked out in a timely manner.

When you do go to pick it up will they tell you how much your trans takes?
Will they tell you the difference between Dex 6 and 3?

Yes, and every dealership has the means to look up the information. If they say that they don't, then either they are inexperienced at their job, or they are lying. I get calls like this every single day, not to mention PM's, email etc. I've done this line of work for 10 years, so I do know what I'm talking about.

How about if you are installing a shift kit? What if you have a 245 or 258mm converter? do they know?

One point that our vendors have up on dealerships. This they will not know, since it's not OEM, it's not a concern to them once you start modifying. Specifically for the reason that GM does not want to be held liable for any false information in modification of anything in the drivetrain. And dealerships CAN be held accountable for such things, hence the reason they won't usually install things as a "favor", unless you know someone very well at a dealership.

Ain't competition great?

I just see it as if you don't like the price don't buy and go elsewhere. No need to complain about the price. You can always find a cheaper place but you get what you pay for in the long run. If you got a question you can call and someone answers the phone thats familiar with whats going on.

Custom parts don't just fly together. R&D is expensive and so is time. I usta do everything myself. Then i started looking at i can make 50hr if i work. So if it takes me 2hr to drive somewhere b.s. with them on a 100 dollar part to save 20 dollars I should have just spend my time else where.

Originally Posted by webracin

I have to say that no one should tell any owner how to run their business. It is all on Zooomer and only him to make his business a success, and being that its been around for quite some time, I would have to say he has done good.

Yes, I agree that no one should tell anyone how they should run their business. And please don't think I am trying to do that. I am in no way saying that Zoomer should run his business like this and sell his products like this...

But what I am saying is that this is the way I look at things. I may be wrong or I may be right. But this is my opinion and how I view the world. You may think different. Thats fine. This is my opinion and I am just expressing it.

That said, I shop for deals. If I can get something from a local parts store for the same price, then I get it there. If I need something that I can only get online, and one of the community vendors has it within 5 bucks or so, then I will support the community vendor.

I shop for deals as well. And I buy things at the best price. $5 will make the difference for me. And things have to be really cheap online to makeup the savings of shipping the item. So most of the stuff I get locally or used. But I don't buy from a vendor just to support them. Again, just my way I do things. Not saying you are right or wrong.

The bottom line is this. If you don't like the price, look for a cheaper one. Its all about the supply and demand.

I agree 100% and I do just that...look elsewhere if I don't like the price.

FYI....please try to keep in mind that we all read things differently, so when there are comments like:

It could be taken that you are saying that Zooomer is not an honest business man and is out to screw everyone over. I don't think this is what you meant, however based on the topic and the content, it could be viewed that way.

Sorry that this statement was taken this way. I tried to explain myself by saying how someone can tell me they want these parts at any price. There are people in our industry that will take those guys for granted and cheat them out of their money. That is what I was referring to with that statement. I did not intend for it to be a slam against Zoomer or ZZP. It was strictly based on my experiences with my company and the industry we support.

so you will spend an extra say day to save $5, then you end up spending more than that in your time, and gas. I will check around some, but I also will pay for convenience. I have also found buying some things online is cheaper than any local place (computer parts are half what I can buy local for instance) I also am one that will not buy from someone only on price, and will also support the independent guy first when possible (I have not been to a best buy in 9 years even for stuff I can't get myself)

Zef, I agree. Everyone has their own opinion and they are entitled to it. We value your input as well as everyone elses. I really think that vendors will charge what they think is reasonable (in their eyes). It may not be reasonable to us, however there are those that will blindly pay the price. The good thing is when the product does not go over as big as the vendor thinks it will, you can bet there will be a sale and possibly even selling it below cost just so there is not as much as a loss in profit. Product on the shelf is not making you money, its the product out the door.

You can bet that if I came up with a 20 dollar (my cost) item that converted water to gas, I would not sell it for 25 bucks. I think 250 would be fair since you will be saving that much in the first 6 months you use it.

Now one thing I don't agree with is if the MSRP is say 50 bucks, and a company (not the manufacturer) raises the price to 70 then gives a 20 dollar off coupon or a mail in rebate.

webracin

I agree with that one also, MSRP is a bit high on most products already

Its called marketing, MSRP is now 70.00

I don't set MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail pricing) the manufacturer does

sorry, I was not clear in that. I changed my post to show that a company or vendor changed the price to 70, but the manufacturer still had the MSRP at 50.

webracin

Well, I dont want to bash any vendor in peticular, BUT if you have priced air dams you know the shipping is jacked up and costs almost as much as the product. I believe its a matter of demand. One place offers it and marks up the shipping to make a profit. Roof rails are another example. They went sky high before they ran out. I dont like it but if I was the business owner what would I do? Hard to say. These days you have to make profit where you can. I agree with both sides. hard to say there is any really right or wrong with it.

Right, just look at Ebay.....

99 cents for a laptop and 799.00 for shipping and handling

(I know that exagerated, but you get the idea)

Shipping and handling is a real pain sometimes and you have to really be careful. It can turn a good deal into a real quick. That is one thing that I really look for when I am buying online, and just my thoughts are if you are charging reasonable shipping and handling, then I will buy (as long as the price and shipping/handling is cheaper than I can buy it locally). But if your shipping and handling are way out there, I view it as a shaddy tactic and wont buy the item, but that is just me.

webracin