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  1. #1
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    Default Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Hey guys, not new to these cars at all, but definitely new to tuning. The last L67 car I played with at all was my '98 GS years ago (3.4" pulley, headers, 3.29s, etc), and it was just a car I got very lucky with: the DHP 1.5 BIN worked flawlessly on that car and I never saw anything beyond tiny blips of KR on hot days and, as far as I know, that car still runs great for the current owner.

    Now I'm back with another car, an '01 GS, and I'm getting my feet wet into modding again. Last weekend I did a Gen V swap, along with some other stuff. So for now the mod list is:


    • 3.6" pulley on Gen V
    • Front and rear Powerlogs
    • 3" downpipe
    • 3" catback
    • Intake
    • AL104s


    I'm noticing that I'm getting some sustained KR near the end of each gear, along with some blips here and there. At first, I attributed it to the DHP tune, so I went back to stock and started over. Generally, the KR doesn't exceed ~2.8 degrees or so, but on a recent scan I did see one blip of 4.2 degrees which really scared me. I started going through Jerry's Tuning Notebook as a guide and wasted a lot of time on a VE tune until I got back on here and read again that it's probably not worth it. So I did some scans and used Eddie's table tool to try and clean up the MAF tune a couple of times, but to no real difference. As of now, the PCM is stock minus the changes that Jerry suggested for torque management, shifts, etc along with the MAF and VE tables slightly tweaked. I have included the BIN file currently on the car.

    Looking at the scans, it seems that my O2 readings are below where they should be, only in the high 800s. This would indicate I'm leaning out, right? Is this too aggressive of spark advance or simply not providing enough fuel? I'm seeing positive LTFTs so I'd think it's too lean in the tune..

    I REALLY wish I would have had a more recent scan of the car unmodded, but the last time I scanned it was probably in May '16 when I got an AVT box and dumped DHP 1.5 on it. It had no appreciable KR then, but that was also with good summer fuel down in GA, not to mention being totally stock, right down to the U-bend. I don't know if a combination of the terrible winter-grade 93 octane and the ~55 degree weather is making matters worse here.

    I'm in the middle of reading through webracin's tuning guide that Scotty linked to in another thread, there's just a lot to take in right off the hop.

    Scan 1: http://superchargedv6.com/tuning/9Mar2017-Scan1.csv
    Scan 2: http://superchargedv6.com/tuning/9Mar2017-Scan2.csv
    BIN: http://superchargedv6.com/tuning/MAFTune2.bin
    Last edited by digitaloutsider; 03-09-2017 at 06:56 PM.
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  2. #2
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    did you do the cat kill in tiny tuner? that could be hurting ya.

    whats your wot timing set at in the bin? might have to pull it back some, when you have kr thats not going away the maf and the o2 readings become off.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

  3. #3
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Without a wideband, you really have no idea where your wot fueling is. It could be 13:1 or 9:1.

    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, bulletproofed, tuned
    1966 Olds Cutlass 442 Convertible
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    did you do the cat kill in tiny tuner? that could be hurting ya.

    whats your wot timing set at in the bin? might have to pull it back some, when you have kr thats not going away the maf and the o2 readings become off.
    The rear O2 is still in since I got the catted DP, so I didn't mess with the cat diagnostics. I'll check the BIN when I get home, thanks for giving me a place to start!

    As for a wideband, I want one, but I've heard a lot of grief about deleting the rear O2 in the 01+ cars. I guess I can try to find another spot to get a bung welded in at.
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  5. #5
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    what down pipe you get? if its got a hi flow cat you need to delete the rear o2 from the bin, and then delete its codes and the cat code.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

  6. #6
    GXP Level Member GTPpower's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    It's super easy to shut that test off.

    2001 GTP - cam, headers, nitrous, stock trans - 11.83 @ 116 <$2k in mods - sold
    2005 F350 6.0 - studded, deleted, bulletproofed, tuned
    1966 Olds Cutlass 442 Convertible
    2000 Chevy Silverado 2500 6.0l

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Here is the Good Fuel Spark table:



    It's my understanding that it will command whatever is in the GFS table + the AFR Spark Modifier table, so here are those settings:



    Quote Originally Posted by Scottydoggs View Post
    what down pipe you get? if its got a hi flow cat you need to delete the rear o2 from the bin, and then delete its codes and the cat code.
    It's the ZZP catted downpipe, which they advertise as: "The downpipes we sell come with a high performance converter. It is OBD2 compliant but it is on the very edge of being so." Take that for what you will.

    If that could be part of the issue, I'll go ahead and remove all the rear O2 stuff. I've read that the cat diagnostics can throw the LTFTs all wonky, and now that I think about it, I do see really high LTFTs on extended decel..
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    I went ahead and just disabled the cat diagnostics (set the Tests Per Trip to 0 and the Enable Coolant Temp to -285).
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  9. #9
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    that dp will over fuel aka fail its cat test for sure in the 01-03 cars.


    looks like a dhp timing file. its one higher then stock wot.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    That BIN started life as a "stock" 12226105 Regal file from the dropbox. I compared it to an 01 GTP file and the tables look the same. Is there a table you're looking at that I'm not?
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  11. #11
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    you need to copy every folder over, not just this or that one, they all have changes.

    the only things i dont swap over if theres a year change is the diagnostic folders, where you delete codes, cause they are not the same, and your maf hertz part of the maf file. what ever the top file is in the maf folder keep that one stock for your car. you can tune it later if you need to.

    and make sure the injector file is stock too, unless your changing them. some of them tuned bins have injectors swaps in them, and then also double check the rpm and mph shifts in the tranny folder, cause those might be to high for you.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Ah yeah, the MAF table is different because I was experimenting with the MAF tuning from the Jerry guide. I'll set that back to stock too. The transmission stuff is pulled from my old "1.5" BIN which worked for me then, but I'll make it more conservative.
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  13. #13
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    i gave up on the table modifier thing. i really dont think it makes a large enough swing at things, why it takes 5 to 10 scans and blah blah blah. waste of gas.

    if you got your old trany file and it had stock ish shift points, use it. dont think id shift it at 5800 on stock valve springs, cause 5800 ends up really being 6000 or 6100.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Yeah, I'm starting to see that.. I put the stock MAF table back in, reduced some of the shift points, and moved the timing above 4000 RPM (where I was seeing 99% of the KR) down 3% in the Good Fuel Spark table. That's the best place to change the timing, right? I'm a little fuzzy on what Mean Best Torque Spark does exactly.
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  15. #15
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    your in the right folder, leave the other two alone. bottom 3 rows are your wot timing in gfs.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Badass. Thanks, man! There's still salt on the road from last night, so no test drive's today, but I'll let you know how it is next time I get it out.
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  17. #17
    Killa Bee Scottydoggs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    being its still cool out, the cold air keeps the kr down, come summer you might have to play tuner again if you see kr.

    98 Buick Regal GS, F body brakes, Caddy STS wheels, tinted tails L36 bottom end, lightly ported heads, 1.95 roller rockers, headers, 2.8, FSIC, 42 lb injectors, a BrandonHall rebuilt trans, DHP tuned and AEM water/Meth injection https://goo.gl/gpV5kW

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Dropped the WOT GFS down to 10.04 (decreased it by 3% a couple of times until I got something the car liked) from 11.00 for the 4000-5200 RPM range.

    Seems to have liked that, only little blips of KR now to figure out. Thanks for getting me on the right track!
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    And it's back to basically how it was. ~1.5-2.5 degrees of KR, not every single run, but sometimes. Guess it just really liked the super cold weather yesterday.

    Is it normal to have to back timing off this much?
    2001 Buick Regal GS Supercharged 3.8L 231ci Pushrod 90 V6 | 4T65E-HD
    Gen V M90, 3.6/3.4/3.2/3.0" MPS, 60lb injectors, E85, FP rewire, F&R Powerlogs, 3" DP, 3" catback, Intake, 104s, 180 t-stat, Rendezvous HUD, Blacked-out headlights, Tint, F-body front brakes, Tuned.

  20. #20
    Turbo is the way to go. Fivefingerdeathpunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eliminating KR - I think I see the problem?

    Hard to say.

    If you still don't know your true AFR, it's still a guessing game.

    SMGPFC Member #1

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