Pontiac Grand Prix Forums : Grandprix

Scimmia · #1 05-09-2009, 09:57 AM

Hellfish is putting together a group buy on these on the Regal forum. Thought I would put the info up here for anyone interested. I'll try to keep this thread updated as Hellfish posts.

Currently, there is no acceptable plug wire available for these cars.

I have found a solution that provides us what I believe is the best possible plug wire for a performance/street or race application, or even for a daily driver.

The wire I have chosen is a 10 mm wire with a 100% silicone jacket and a stainless steel (highly wound) winding. capable of withstanding 700*F sustained or 1200*F for 3 minutes.

Prices could be a bit less if the community moves towards the 8.5 mm wire, which is the same conductor, with a thinner silicone jacket which can withstand 600*F sustained or 1000*F for 3 minutes. Also, the 1 piece pure silicone jacket makes it possible to fit these in the factory wire separators with out damaging the conductor like would happen with other brands. But I feel the extra insulation necessary since the proximity of our plug wires to the supercharger.

The conductor itself will be able transmit significantly more energy than stock, require less coil voltage to fire the plug, and could conceivably out last your car. Because of their construction they are both STRONGER and MORE FLEXIBLE than other solutions.

The sets will be manufactured by the manufacture as the cost of the materials VS having them make the sets is so marginal that I determined it better to have them do it, so you don't need to worry yourself with anything in the regard of the quality of the assembly.

After consideration i would tentatively release the following prices:

20+ Orders, 130$

50+ Orders, 120$

(subject to change)

does not include wire separators or coolsox. but includes shipping.

You WILL need to provide a looming solution which keeps the wires separated and away from the engine as much as possible. (This is how ANY plug wire should be installed, but the manufacture was clear they did not want to see wires come back because they were improperly routed.) I recommend Coolsox boots in your installation especially in applications with headers/tubular manifolds or turbochargers, however the manufactures says they should be fine with out them.

Properly installed and maintained these would be the last plug wires you ever buy.

What I would like to do is start a list of 20. If it moves at a good pace, we will go to 50.

Once we reach the order amount, I will dispatch an email and people on the list will have 48 hours to send payment. People who did not get in on time will be notified. Those who do not pay with in 48 hours will be replaced with people who did not make the first batch. If people get bumped the "back up people" will have 24 hours to pay. I'll place the order with the company and will then receive the wires and then ship them to their final destination myself. If a significant amount of people do NOT pay (lets say, 20-25%), I will return peoples money to them, sans paypal fees if they pay with a credit card. I will have 2 addresses to use, one for payments with and one with out a CC. If only a few people fail to pay, I will either attempt to work out a deal with the manufacture or pay for the remainder of sets my self and then they will be available at a marked up price to whomever wants them.

The current list:

Regalgs.org:

Myself
LSchris
97 park ave
detroitdave
Scimmia
dmon901
1badregal
M_Dogg

PLEASE CONTACT ME WITH PM WITH YOUR EMAIL / SHIPPING INFO.

First 20 will receive 20 piece price, if we are able to reach 50, we will be able to get a slightly better price.

If everyone would commit to buying wire separators and coolsox I could also likely get those at volume a discount as well.

*edit: I can get coolsox in quantities of 16 or 33 sets, for an additional cost of ~27$ per set shipped (quantity of 6 coolsox). When I bought mine they were 36+tax & SH

The Big Reveal:

Yes, perhaps some have speculated on where/who these wires are coming from. We have worked with Magnecor to get a custom set of their R100 10 mm race ignition wires made for our application. These wires will deliver the most powerful spark, handle the most heat, and out last the life of the car with proper care. Picture below is our "beta" kit. Kits that ship will be numbered. As you can see they come with documentation outlining how to install the wires, including special instructions

Just to recap:

The R-100 wire is a 10 mm ignition cable. It's conductor is a 2.5mm diameter stainless steel winding around a strengthening substrate, then coated with a one piece 100% silicone jacket that provides the best thermal protection, flexibility and strength. The wire terminates at both ends with a stainless steel terminal. The plug boot is the highest temperature boot available.

This set has been designed to fit FWD 3800's. These will fit with any intercooler/blower. The plug boot is also fairly low profile and the highest temperature they make to accommodate most headers, no coolsox are necessary. These were designed to fit cars with the coils in the factory location, they have been given a reasonable amount of slack, but if you have moved your coils, please ask first as there are no returns for non-defective parts (and we can order you a custom set for a bit extra). In fact, unless you physically break your wires (which is not covered) you should never have a problem. Just be sure to read the documentation that comes withe them completely. If you do physically break a wire you can order individual replacements through us.

I have sourced wire separators which are acceptable (there aren't may 10 mm ones to chose from). If you would like to add them to your order please let me know (they are extra). However, I am still working with the manufacture on the price, but this should be wrapped up soon once we work out quantity. You can provide your own looming solution, there is a fairly clean method of using zip ties to create custom separators which you may find on the web. Wires should be neatly loomed and kept away from anything that may damage them. You don't want any plug wires to contact the engine directly.

We may also offer brackets to mount the separators at a premium, I have a contact that could stamp us some pieces to mount the wires too. These may take extra time so if we go ahead with them, I will offer them to people who already bought plug wires at a later date with no extra shipping, just the cost of what ever they turn out to be.

Pictured is our BETA set, the final set will be numbered.

These plug wires represent a fairly large investment of time and money of Chris and myself, and I take a lot of pride to release these and to say that they are Made in the USA, including any accessories we provide (separators, brackets).

For those that have an account at RegalGS.org, the relevant threads are here:
RegalGS.org • Login
RegalGS.org • Login

Scimmia · #2 05-11-2009, 10:08 AM

Bump, nobody needs some good plug wires?

JoshMcMadMac · #3 05-11-2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Scimmia

Bump, nobody needs some good plug wires?

I will never understand why people think spending $100+ on plug wires for zero gain is a good deal.

Scimmia · #4 05-11-2009, 11:14 AM

Longevity for one, these wires should outlast your engine without losing performance. Durability for another, the stock wires are pretty fragile. Performance, well, we'll see.

JoshMcMadMac · #5 05-11-2009, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Scimmia

Longevity for one, these wires should outlast your engine without losing performance. Durability for another, the stock wires are pretty fragile. Performance, well, we'll see.

Bosch replacements from somewhere like AutoZone are probably ~$40 and have a lifetime warranty. Swap them out every other time you do the plugs.

Scimmia · #6 05-11-2009, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by JoshMcMadMac

Bosch replacements from somewhere like AutoZone are probably ~$40 and have a lifetime warranty. Swap them out every other time you do the plugs.

Um, yeah, if you're installing anything from Bosch on your car, I can't help you.

boosted97coupe · #7 05-11-2009, 02:23 PM

Um, yeah, if you're installing anything from Bosch on your car, I can't help you.

I completely agree, Bosch plugs and wires are a joke. On the other hand a stock set of AC Delco's from the dealer for $30-$40 will do just fine and last for 100K miles. Just my professional opinion, to each his own.

Scimmia · #8 05-11-2009, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by boosted97coupe

I completely agree, Bosch plugs and wires are a joke. On the other hand a stock set of AC Delco's from the dealer for $30-$40 will do just fine and last for 100K miles. Just my professional opinion, to each his own.

$30-$40? GM list is $83, and they won't go 100K without some significant performance drop. I was looking for replacements because my stock replacement Delcos were giving me RFI, which means they probably give off EMI as well, which isn't good with an engine with as many electronic controls as we have.

boosted97coupe · #9 05-11-2009, 03:54 PM

Yea, I was thinking with my discount, which is usually about half of list, I'll give you that. But as far as Electromagnetic and Radio Frequency interference is concerned, GM DESIGNED these engines to operate for 100K miles with THEIR plug wires, (and plugs for that matter)so u have no case there. I changed my original wires and plugs in my GTP at 102K miles and in my blazer at 101K miles..no performance concerns what-so-ever out of the originals. Did have a slight drop in fuel economy tawards the end of their service life though.

Scimmia · #10 05-11-2009, 03:57 PM

No case? I have audible RFI with Delco wires, and that's no biggie? GM engineered them to go a long time, but at the lowest price. The accountants get involved in design way too often.

boosted97coupe · #11 05-11-2009, 04:23 PM

I'm not saying these wires aren't better, just that I cannot justify the cost of them when my stock ones do the same job. If you have RFI with stock ones, then your car has another problem. I haven't seen an RFI concern on a car for years, and the last one I had was self-inflicted (an older Vette that another shop took the distributor shield off of).

JoshMcMadMac · #12 05-11-2009, 06:53 PM

Bosch plugs and O2 sensors are not great, but the wires are just as good as anything similar out there...and more importantly the performance will be the same as these group buy uber-wires.

Scimmia · #13 05-11-2009, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by JoshMcMadMac

and more importantly the performance will be the same as these group buy uber-wires.

Again, I can't help you.

rynoman03 · #14 05-12-2009, 06:55 AM

I think i'll stick with my AC Delco's. I've had upgraded wires before and they failed. Sometimes you just can't beat plain ol STOCK wires.

1998xGTP · #15 05-12-2009, 07:15 PM

This should be posted in group buys not for sale.

1998xGTP · #16 05-12-2009, 07:16 PM

And what is better about these than the PRJ's?

Scimmia · #17 05-13-2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by 1998xGTP

And what is better about these than the PRJ's?

From LSChris, posted on another forum:

The design and construction of the wires we are offering is superior to the Taylor 409 Spiro Pro wire (the wire used in PRJ wires) in two key ways.

Taylor wires use a spiral wound Ferrite core. Ferrite is iron and corrodes easily. Which is what makes it a bad candidate for an ignition wire conductor. It is a popular choice among manufacturers in the industry because it is extremely cheap. The wire we are offering utilizes a tightly wound stainless steel core, which will not corrode and degrade as iron does. The price of stainless steel is significantly higher than iron, which is why our wires bear a higher cost.

The wires we are offering use a 100% pure silicone jacket with no filler material. Taylor wires do not. Instead, they use three layers of silicone with two layers of fiberglass filler in between to lower manufacturing costs.

The inner most layer of fiberglass in Taylor's 409 Spiro Pro wire is said to increase the "pull strength" of the wire. A spark plug wire is not a rope! It does nothing to prevent the wire from being pulled out of the terminal in the instance of improper removal. Pulling on the wire (and not the boot) is a quick and almost guaranteed way to damage ANY plug wire.

The wires we are offering have a heat resistance of 700*F (continuous) and up to 1200*F for 3 minute bursts. While the Taylor wires are only rated to 600*F (continuous) even with their extra layer of fiberglass "insulation". Tightly wrapping silicone in fiberglass does nothing to provide extra heat protection. While the fiberglass itself is able to withstand temperatures of over 1000*F without burning, the silicone inside can not and cooks from within the fiberglass. The only solution in this type of situation is a "Cool Sock" or woven fiberglass boot that is installed over the spark plug wire boot before it is connected to the spark plug.

Very simply, Magnecor R-100 wires are all out, no expense spared wires, with the best materials and construction available. To add to what chris has said, the Taylors use a conductive fluorocarbon outer layer around their winding, which incidentally is where the current will be flowing! So then we're back to standard, carbon conductor wires that will wear out and degrade.

Scimmia · #18 05-13-2009, 10:41 AM

Update:

We have 2 choices for plug boots.

Stock style plug boots (the exact plug boots on the stock wire set) and the high temperature boots seen here. If we use the high temperature boots you may have to bend the plug terminal on number 6 to clear the O2 sensor IF and only IF you are running stock manifolds.

The boots are quite longer than stock, but they can handle a lot of heat. there is a slight variance in installed boot height. We have had them adjust it down so it should clear the O2 sensor with no problem, but if your boot gets close to it (not every car is the same, there is a little varience ) and you are uncomfortable, magnecor said that you can simply bend the terminal of the boot (with the wire out of the car and ). We have tested this and it's no problem.

It's my opinion that with the adjustment you should be fine even with the high temp boots on stock manifold...

You can order the plug wires with what ever boot you like, so please post and specify. If you are running headers or turbo manifolds, i would recommend the high temp. If you are worried about the length of the high temp boot, you can order stock style (they are actually the GM boot made by delphi.) I doubt it will touch with the adjustment and if you loom them tightly. But if it does you can slightly bend the terminal. Magnecor offered to bend #6 for all of them. They say its no problem, bending it is fool-proof and any one can do it as long as you do it out of the car, it is something they do frequently with this robust terminal. You could even bend it back if you get headers.

beta set 2 will have numbers. Adding them is expensive, so i will post and the community can decide if its worth it. The cost is increasing due to the added length to route around W body engine mount. I don't know if i can split the order for those who don't have a mount there and would want a cheaper price. I'm trying to work some wiggle room into the price and I may still be able to sell them at 130, but I doubt we can keep them at 130 shipped with numbers, because the cost with shipping would then exceed 130. We're talking about a margin of dollars.

Does everyone really want numbers? It's obvious which plug each wire belongs to based on length.

Scimmia · #19 05-13-2009, 11:03 AM

Another fact Hellfish has posted on another forum:

Taylor has between 10 and 16.6 times the wire in it as an MSD wire.

Magnecor has just over 4 x the wire per foot as a Taylor.

the Magnecor has 200 coils per inch.

I know this is a young community, but is there really nobody here who has experience outside of the w-body arena?

bluegtp91 · #20 05-13-2009, 04:52 PM

It sounds good to me...I ain't knocking it...if I had the extra money I'd get em...

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Pontiac Grand Prix Forums : Grandprix

Magnecor R-100 10mm Race Ignition Wires