No, don't get me wrong, I agree that businesses have to raise their price over what they paid to make a profit. I understand that. But the problem I have is the attitude about the "price gouging". ZZP often comes off on other boards like they are selling things at rock bottom prices and not making a dime. They will "claim poverty" in hopes of making the buyers feel bad for them and accept their inflated prices. Sure, they may sell some of their custom parts at little to no markup (but I highly doubt it), but they make loads of money on the common parts that people can find cheaper elsewhere (SS lines, struts, gaskets, tranny fluid, etc). But people think that ZZP is selling these things to help them out and they know grand prixs, so they won't rip me off. Yes, they will rip you off, and they do it every day. Maybe "rip off" isn't the correct term. But they seriously inflate prices, and people that trust ZZP to be fair sadly pay those prices.

Just my $.02 on it. Sorry to take this thread off track...

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1997 GTP - 200k+ miles, PEMs, 3" SS Exhaust w/ Borla Mufflers, 3.4", 180* stat(summer), FWI, 1.84 RR, PT, SLP hood, KYB GR2s, GMPP Handling Kit, etc...

The market helps determine what any vendor, including ZZP can sell their products for. If people werent buying the parts, the vendor is going to cut prices, or cut products, or go out of business. that's just the nature of the beast, and you're kidding yourself if you think that any major vendor isnt this way. but like you said, is off topic, so let's let it rest, and back to the brake lines....

has anyone gotten either set yet?

Okay, we can let it go.

But all this has me thinking. My brother has an older Suzuki motorcycle and he went to a local place to get SS brake lines made up. I wonder what they charged. I should look into it and see about getting some sets made up. I am thinking they were pretty cheap. Anyway, something to look into.

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1997 GTP - 200k+ miles, PEMs, 3" SS Exhaust w/ Borla Mufflers, 3.4", 180* stat(summer), FWI, 1.84 RR, PT, SLP hood, KYB GR2s, GMPP Handling Kit, etc...

well, get workin on that, duuude!

Anything can usually be purchased cheaper if you shop and shop. The point of ZZP is that it's taylored to our cars and it's a one stop shop. You know that what you buy will work and it's easy to find things. We charge less than the dealer, less than other 3800 vendors and give out advice on the use of products. I fail to see how this is price gouging. Look at the stainless brake lines. They are a custom part. You can't buy "longer than stock" stainless lines unless you shop around. We're cheaper than most places like PFYC on the lines and I posted a 30% off coupon here for you guys.

Take the trans fluid you posted as an example. 1st off, it's not sold anywhere but GM dealerships. You won't find it at Advance or Napa. Then when you do call a dealer, not many stock it. you have to call or drive around. When you do go to pick it up will they tell you how much your trans takes? How about if you are installing a shift kit? What if you have a 245 or 258mm converter? Will they tell you the difference between Dex 6 and 3? do they know?
All of these things come into play with the products we sell. That's what distinguishes us from Summit or Jeggs. Our parts are specific and so is the information and tech support. Hell, we have an entire article written just on that transmission fluid. How many places that sell it have written an article? I wrote it personally after much R&D and testing. I can even give you HP loss numbers based on the transmission fluids temperature. So how much is that worth? Is your time worthless? Would you go to work for free at your job? ZZP is my job. Don't you think we deserve to make an extra 50 cents on a gallon of trans fluid to compensate for the R&D and tech articles or are you a person that shops our site for the information and then drives around to save $2 on products so we don't 'rip you off'? If that's the case I would ask that you stop ripping us off by gleaning our information for free. At least contribute by sending us tech articles to post, buying our stuff or sending a donation...

Edit for another thought...About 1/2 of the parts on ZZP are designed, developed by ZZP and custom for your car. How can you even put a baseline price on something that doesn't exist? What do you think funds the development of these products? Looking at your mod list, you're running 1.84 rockers. Guess what? ZZP developed those. Someone had to pay for the wages of a person taking the time to test rocker ratios and find out the highest you can safely run without valve float on stock springs. So you are reaping the benefit of the so called "price gouging" by ZZP. I'm sorry for going on and on but as the owner I've poured blood, sweat and tears into this company and re-invested our profits into developing parts to help the comunity. i would hope that ZZP could have enough appreciation that we don't have to be the brunt of baseless attacks for selling merchandise at a profit.

Zooomer, I will agree with you that your time is worth something. I will agree that you provide parts specifically for our vehicles. It is a niche market at best and that makes for a tough business, particularly if the platform is not long lasting. I completely see your point of view to be clear. You are a business and and not a non-profit business. You need and deserve to make a profit for the work you do, for the jobs you have created by having employees, etc.

But if you will allow me to respectfully play devils advocate for a moment. And first let me say that if I had not already purchased longer lines during your woot sale, Id be all over this deal.

I think the issue is that the perception is that all prices are at their bottom price point. I dont wish to cause an issue with Zef, I value him being here and a part of this community, but I havent gotten the same perception as he has. However, that said, its the perception that if they can offer such a deep discount as you have, then why not sell it at that lower price all the time? This is exclusive to your business either, you hear this in all circles. Clothes, cars, food, etc. And I say all this with some trepidation as I prefer not to ruin your desire to come back here and offer other discounts.

That said, I think what is not often realized (and I dont know this to be the case with the brake lines you are offering) is that sometimes a discount is offered that brings the price down below what even the business paid for it in the hopes that it would spur on enough traffic or business that will result in other purchases of items in which they do make a profit on.

Take convenience stores for example. They sell gas and make little if anything on it. But where they do make their money is when you go inside and buy a pop, chips and other snacks or items. The gasoline is a draw just to get you in the store. Zooomer hasnt said this specifically nor am I stating this, but lets at least consider the fact that perhaps Zooomer may be selling these cheaper than what he bought them for.

He is also correct that they provide information that comes from R&D and experience often free of charge. I called them when I got my shaft mount rockers and was missing the little spacers and had no bolts with it. I was on the phone a good time with the person that answered as they asked questions about other valve train parts I had so that they could get me the right sized spacers. I had no idea there were different sizes, I just thought they were generic spacers. But because of their experience where I had none, I got the right parts. Can you imagine installing the rockers having just picked a spacer not knowing if it was the right one or not? You got all the stuff off the engine you would have to pull to get to that point only to be denied.

So I would ask that we consider this as well with respect to what Zooomer is offering. The market is very much dictated by the consumer. And if one does not like what is being offered, your voice is heard through your purchasing decisions. The vendor then has to make the decision on whether to listen or not, and we know the consequences of each choice.

I will add this Zooomer, just for the record. Dex 6 is available in the parts stores. I was just in AutoZone this past weekend and they had Dex 6 in there. I havent checked Advance Auto or Oreilly's yet. But Autozone also had the G-05 coolant which has been a bit difficult to find as well.

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Scotty Hall
Bartlesville, OK
2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
It whines a lot, but I like it.

The only limitation you will ever face in life is yourself!

So in the SS Brake Line thread, we started to get off in on tangent about vendor pricing. I probably started it, so instead of throwing it further off topic, I thought I would start a new thread. Here is the progression:

So, the last post, Zoomer's, is the one I want to respond to. He touched on everything except the SS brake lines which were the item I originally mentioned. As I noted, he offered a $32 discount. Thus why I said they seemed overpriced since they are probably still making a profit even after the $32 price increase.

But my point about price gouging is this. Where I work, we sell our product. We are in an honest business and not our to screw anyone over. If someone needs a part and tells me "I don't care what it costs. As long as it is cheaper than your competitor at $XX.XX." Do I just try to beat that price? Or do I figure my costs, add my 20% profit margin, and sell it honestly, while still making a profit. Since I believe I am not out to screw over my customers, I sell it for my costs plus 20%.

So as for the brake lines. If I am in business, and I can get them made at $60 a set, I would sell them at $72 and make an honest profit. If someone else is selling them for $99, I don't automatically raise my price to $89 to make more profit. To me, that is selfish by wanting as much profit I can without regards to the customer. This is my view on the brake lines.

The same applies to any other general product that may be purchased and resold (gaskets, springs, struts, etc.) I think it is fair to charge 20% profit on these parts. And this would make you a one stop shop while still turning a profit. And if you do research and have extra time, that is fine to figure it in on the costs. You know how much time you spent on it. And you know your target sales for that product. Divide it out, and raise the price accordingly. Again, fine by me.

But the problem I have is when I the prices I see are significantly more than I can buy locally. If the parts I buy at a local parts store are more than 20% cheaper than another's prices, then yes, I think this is unfair. Not saying a little guy can get the same gasket at the same price as a big parts store. I realize this. But when Autozone can sell a gasket for $10, and turn a profit, a smaller retailer should be able to buy that same gasket for $10 or less, and be expected not to sell it for $18. Again, some companies have no problems ripping off their customers. But I feel that I honestly cannot do this.

And Zoom mentioned tranny fluid. Yes, GM Dexron VI is only available at dealers. But I can get Valvoline full synthetic Dex VI for $3.80 a quart. Even from my local dealer, I can get GM Dex VI for $4.50 a quart. With no shipping either place. Just stop on the way home from work. And yes, those places will all look up and tell me how much I need. And yes, they know the difference between Dex VI and Dex III (and that Dex III should no longer be used since Dex VI is better). And if I can get fluid from GM for $4.50 a quart, a retailer should be able to buy in bulk, or with a tax ID number, and get it cheaper.

As for R&D or parts. That is great that you have the ability to build and test parts. But again, those price increases should only be seen on the parts that the R&D was done on. You should know the time that was put into them. You should know the number of units you expect to sell. You should know the overhead costs and labor costs. So its fairly easy to figure out the price of a product, with the R&D that went into that product included in it. If the price is too much and not comparable with other similar products on the market, then sufficient research wasn't done on that product before hand.

So in the end, I will buy my parts from the place that sells them at a fair price, and thus a fair profit. I work hard for my money and don't like being ripped off. These are not baseless attacks. Just my opinions on the matter. I have bought from ZZP and probably will in the future is the price is right. But yes, I shop around and spend my hard earned money on the parts that are priced the most reasonable.

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1997 GTP - 200k+ miles, PEMs, 3" SS Exhaust w/ Borla Mufflers, 3.4", 180* stat(summer), FWI, 1.84 RR, PT, SLP hood, KYB GR2s, GMPP Handling Kit, etc...

define fair profit. In Electronics I have a margin of 1% up to 100% depending on brand and line (and some have a minimum price I can advertise), jewelry typically has a 300-400% markup no one balks at that. I know some car parts have a huge mark up while others have next to nothing. Retail prices are set by the market conditions, you charge what people will pay, but you don't want to go so cheap that people perceive lower quality (basic marketing classes teach that)

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Steve
'97 GTP VS cam, ZZP PCM, and not much else yet

I certainly see your point Zef, however as I am sure you know, since your in the business, is that we the consumer are in control of the price of an item. I have worked for Western Auto, Parts America and Advance Auto (all the same building, we just changed names due to the chain being sold). We never had a 20% policy, it was 5% below the competitors price even if it meant we have to take a loss on it, just to get that person back. I now work with Wal-Mart and get to see some of the inner working of how they get their lower prices. I have to say that no one should tell any owner how to run their business. It is all on Zooomer and only him to make his business a success, and being that its been around for quite some time, I would have to say he has done good.

That said, I shop for deals. If I can get something from a local parts store for the same price, then I get it there. If I need something that I can only get online, and one of the community vendors has it within 5 bucks or so, then I will support the community vendor.

How a business splits up the R&D cost is their business. I personally like the idea of splitting up the cost over other items, as it keeps the price down on say valve covers or heads. Look at the Pharmaceutical industry....We the American people pay for all the R&D so they can sell the drugs cheaper in Canada, so what have we done....We have more and more people buying them there.

The bottom line is this. If you don't like the price, look for a cheaper one. Its all about the supply and demand.

FYI....please try to keep in mind that we all read things differently, so when there are comments like:

It could be taken that you are saying that Zooomer is not an honest business man and is out to screw everyone over. I don't think this is what you meant, however based on the topic and the content, it could be viewed that way.

webracin

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2001 Grand Prix GTP
ZZP HUB 3.2 3.4, ZZP 8 Rib conversion, JC 3" DP Gen 2 cat & U-bend Delete, Accel Super Stock 8mm wires, DHP 1.5, 180* Thermo, Throttle Spacer, SS Intercooler, ZZP Fuel Rails, SLP CAI w/K&N Cone, Dynomax cat back, ZZP Tranny.

2000 Grand Prix GTP Daytona K&N, Flowmasters

Not true...Dextron 3 is no longer produced, so Dextron 6 is starting to show up on shelves everywhere once surplus supplies are depleted.

Also not true. Every GM dealership will stock a good supply for their transmission rebuilding. The only reason for them not to have it would be a shortage by the supplier through GM, which does happen on occasion. Simply for the fact that GM does not make any of their chemicals. They are contracted out by a certain company for a given time. If they do not renegotiate said contract, and it expires then it can lead to a shortage of that certain product or line of products. This happens quite often surprisingly, but fortunate for everyone things get worked out in a timely manner.
Yes, and every dealership has the means to look up the information. If they say that they don't, then either they are inexperienced at their job, or they are lying. I get calls like this every single day, not to mention PM's, email etc. I've done this line of work for 10 years, so I do know what I'm talking about.

One point that our vendors have up on dealerships. This they will not know, since it's not OEM, it's not a concern to them once you start modifying. Specifically for the reason that GM does not want to be held liable for any false information in modification of anything in the drivetrain. And dealerships CAN be held accountable for such things, hence the reason they won't usually install things as a "favor", unless you know someone very well at a dealership.

Ain't competition great?

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GreenBastardPerformance2000 GTP Coupe (the green bastard)
XP, Pacesetters, LS1 TB & MAF,MSD System, P&P LIM, P&P GenV w/ 3.2, 3.0, 2.8, Devil'sOwn Injected 100% Methanol,PowerTuned, TripleEdge Trans w/3.29's
12.92 @ 105mph